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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.25 13:34:00 -
[1]
Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.26 17:36:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
This. Learning skills annoy people, but they're not a problem.
I would like to contest that. I've introduced several people to EVE, and every single one of them came back to me within the first few days asking 'what do I do with these learning skills?'. I don't know howmuch of a deterrent it is to new players, although I can imagine it is, but in the least, it causes confusion.
Confusion? Sure. Many things about Eve confuse new players. I know a great many things about Eve confused me at first and took a long time for me to wrap my brain around.
That's not a bad thing. That confusion is a lot of what kept me interested.
Most long-term players I know relished the "figuring things out" process that comes with learning Eve. I'd say those players, who become long-term, are Eve's target market.. not the easily discouraged because things are confusing. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.26 21:30:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Solution looking for a problem.
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development.
Not supported.
What depth? Defer do-fun-stuff skills at the start of your career so as not to cripple yourself later? Wow, such freedom of choice. Good to see the e-wang "EVE is not supposed to be accessible to those foul noobs, it's a game for REAL MEN!" brigade out in force.
I was one of those "foul noobs" and I enjoyed the choice. I actually didn't finish up my learning skills until well after 2 years into the game.
Cripple yourself? Nonsense. A level 5 skill is a level 5 skill no matter how long it takes to train it.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.28 12:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
1. CCP wants to remove them 2. CCP didnt do that because it didnt find good solution, which would satisfy majority of EvE players.
And until now, all people who didn't support are against learning skills removal, and its nice to have opinion but as I said consider theirs removal as something final...now its time to help CCP to find great solution and discuss with those two factors on your mind.
Dev blog / link / proof please or this is hearsay.
I'm not considering their removal "final" because you say it is... sorry.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.06.04 12:55:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Black Dranzer Edited by: Black Dranzer on 04/06/2010 11:47:13
Originally by: Crumplecorn snip
I'm just going to go straight to attack the false premise that these skills add some kind of variety to the game.
Let's say you have two players, player A and player B. You give them both an identical skill plan: A list of skills to learn, and an order in which to learn them. Now, to make this interesting, you tell player A to max out his learning skills before following along the skill plan.
To start off with, player A is way behind player B in skills (besides learning). But as they both follow the skill plan, something happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as many skill points as player A.
The only real "choice" in regards to learning skills is this:
Will you get your learning skills first, or do you plan to be playing for less time than it takes to reach the threshold?
To reiterate this more simply: Ignoring your learning skills is only a good idea if you plan to stop playing the game at some point. The fewer learning skills you get, the shorter your character's lifespan must be for you to not be punished for it.
Any game feature which discourages players from playing is a Bad Thing. The loss of the paltry "choice" that is presented to rookie players is a small price to pay, because when given a choice of "suffer now or suffer later", most new players will leave.
Let's say you have two high-school graduates, player A and player B. You give them both identical grades and resources, but you send B out into the job market and A to college. : B is going straight to making money and A is ômaxing out his learning skillsö before following along the plan.
To start off with, player A is way behind player B in money. But as they both follow the plan, something (probably) happens: Eventually, player A catches up to player B. This moment in time, we shall refer to as "The Threshold". After crossing the threshold, assuming that player A and B both spend an equal amount of time working and training skills (and provided that implants are identical for both players, etc etc), player B will NEVER have as much money or ôskill pointsö as player A.
You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff. Is it a choice? Yep. Is it ômore efficientö to go to college / save money / train learning first. Yes. Do people always choose the most efficient path? Absolutely not. People choose when and where to trade efficiency for convenience / enjoyment / etc all the time. This happens in life and is mirrored in Eve.
Removing choice is bad. Removing depth is bad.
If the learning skills are ever removed, I hope NOTHING replaces them and no bonuses are given. Slow everyone down to the same slow rateà no stat increases, no skill replacements. Nothing.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.06.04 13:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
You can make the same analogy with two graduates given money û one puts it into savings/investments and one spends it on stuff.
Yes, but when the second graduate runs out of money, he doesn't usually kill himself.
You can not reliably compare advancement in real life to advancement in MMOs. Believe me, I've tried; By god have I tried. The fact of the matter is that people are far more willing to leave MMOs than they're willing to leave real life.
When made to choose between the lesser of two evils, an MMO player will leave.
Removing depth can be bad. But it is not unconditionally bad.
Learning skills are not worth the damage the cause.
I suppose that's true if your cause is to increase the number of players at a faster rate than Eve has been growing.
Bearing in mind that Eve is one of the most stable success stories in the MMO world and still grows, I'm not sure that should be our concern.
My "cause" would be keeping it true to the complicated, pain-in-the-ass, game that got us all hooked in the first place. Learning skills are part of that picture - and removing them damages the cause.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.06.11 12:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: devilsspawn If CCP are taking away the deep safe spots because they are an advantage to older players that have them, then they should take away learning skills as well. It is the same principle; Newer players are at a disadvantage because of the lack of the learning skills being trained, where as the older players already have them.
By that logic we should get rid of level V skills because the vets have more of them than the new players, and it takes sooo long for the poor newbies to train them! Hell, let's get rid of isk - the vets have more than the newbies! Capital ships.. those damn veterans have more of those - everything must go! Every new account should have all of the same stuff as a five year old account!
Where does the whining/madness stop? Still not supported.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.08 15:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: R053
Originally by: Jasdemi
What point? Driving new players away who got a brain and don't want to waste their 3 months sub time just to sit in a station and train learnings? Good point, truly good point.
Who ever said u have to sit in the station doing nothing while training learning?
Exactly.
I had a great time my first few months in Eve. I explored, I mined, I shot things and got shot. I slowly worked learning skills in-between other skills for mods and ships I wanted to play with.
My first few months in Eve rank among my most fun times in the game (been playing almost 5 years), along with my first move out to 0.0 and the time right after the introduction of wormholes.
Anyone who doesn't leave the station until they train all learning has a SELF INFLICTED problem, it's not the game's fault. There's LOTS of things a new pilot with no skills can and should do to have fun.
Still not supporting the removal of learning skills.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.10 05:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Xorv Reading a lot of the comments and assertions by those opposed to removing Learning skills makes me feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of people from another dimension where up is down, black is white, and wrong is right.
Seriously, can just one of you come up with logical argument supporting learning skill in EVE that makes sense this side of reality, and is not a poorly masked attempt to keep a perceived personal advantage?
How about the comment above mine... "Learning skills add Depth" Really?? Depth in what way? Because a lot of the rest of us aren't seeing it.
Does the question of when to put money into savings versus when to spend money on stuff add depth to life?
Does the question of when to keep going to school versus when to enter the job market add depth to life?
If the answer to either or both of these questions is "yes" - learning skills add depth to Eve.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Neu Bastian Having to spend weeks training learning skills just so you can train at a decent rate means your new player sitting in the same t1 fitted rifer not being abble to fit new stuff for weeks. that HAS to be annoying. I know I didn't even bothered to do anything with my alts until those where done.
An example of why a proposal that is dressed up as something for the new players (save the children!) is actually a proposal to make it easier for vets to train up alts.
What is best for an alt and what is best for a true new player are not the same.
Still not supporting removing Learning skills.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.16 00:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
-Wandering Deathstriker
That's not bad... |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.16 21:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jasdemi As a new player you have to wait few months to train your learning skills before you can actually start playing the game. This leads to loss of motivation => quit
No, a new player does not have to spend a few months training anything before actually playing the game. I didn't. I started playing day one.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.17 14:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wandering Deathstriker One Solution. Since everyone says that it detracts noobs from actually experiencing the game because it seems like they need to do learning skills before anything else. Why not make it so that learning skills can only be attained after 2 million skill points? After a player reaches 2 million skill points, he can than purchase skill books for learning which he can than decide to choose to learn. In the mean time, the first 2 million skill points he can spend towards things like a nice ship, fittings, etc...
-Wandering Deathstriker
What about this one Trebor?
It seems to me that if the motivation for this change is truly to "save the noobs" this proposal 100% addresses the concern of new pilots being put off by the learning skills - because those skills won't be available when someone first starts the game. A person would have time to get addicted to Eve before having the option to train them.
This is the simplest, least invasive, and most effective fix to the stated problem of new pilots being discouraged by learning skills. This requires no skill re-distribution, no attribute changes, none of the rest of the changes.
I would expect this idea to be dismissed by those who simply hate the learning skills and who are using "protecting the noobs" as an excuse to advocate having them removed so they can make alts faster.
However, this approach satisfies those of us who do believe that the learning skills add something to the game that would be a shame to lose, and it should satisfy those who are concerned about the effect of learning skills on new players.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.26 19:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 26/07/2010 19:28:58
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Raised as a proposal to the CSM.
Your comments regarding adjustments and improvements are solicited.
Bah.
After this shall we work on the "Level V skills take too long to train and they frustrate new players to let's automatically give people level V when they reach level IV. It'll improve new player retention!" proposal?
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.07.29 13:47:00 -
[15]
I would like to see the following added to the Cons list to correctly represent much of the feedback that has been given:
Removes a level of depth/choice/consequence from character development that many feel are a feature/benefit and not a problem.
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